I had no idea the evolution crowd had gotten so nasty. Sort of makes you wonder why the intelligent design crowd has them so nervous, doesn't it?
The liberal dink that wrote this led me on a brief little interesting chase:
Republican Control Of State Legislatures Brings Record Number of Creationism BillsOf course the actual bills refer to not discriminating against scientific viewpoints that contradict parts of evolution theory, they are not, of course, "creationism bills". He glowingly links to the original here with the ridiculous name '
religion dispatches' where the first link is 'sexuality/gender'. It contains this howler:
But as we all know, there is no such thing as ID research, which has not yet produced one single legitimate peer reviewed paper.
The nice thing for these people is that it's a happily self-fulfilling prophecy. You see,
any paper that is about ID is, by definition, not "legitimate", so this is
always a true statement for them and always will be. For the peer-reviewed research on ID that has been published (yes, Virginia, it exists) it's either 'not really about ID' or the publication isn't 'legitimate', or...well, you get the picture. If "we all know" that the sun revolves around the earth, then, by definition, any research to the contrary is not "legitimate". As I said, self-fulfilling prophecy - nice work if you can get it.
But, more to the point, I did a brief search and came up with the self-proclaimed geniuses that appear typical of breed here -
take a look at the robust debate and scientific curiosity espoused by these supergenius sciencey types who agree that "we all know" this is true:
Holly, it’s amusing to have you visit, and you’re very polite, but we really don’t debate with creationists here. If you want to participate in our discussions, that’s fine...But please don’t try to tell us about science. Okay?...
You’re simply repeating the dishonest claims given to you by people who do not look at science with intellectual honesty...
I do not see your argument because it is devoid of knowledge. Learn something then come back...
TalkOrigins has an exhaustive index of creationist arguments with their debunkings. Some of these arguments are in their second century. Come back with one that’s not on the list.
This one's good. For example, they claim that this site will "debunk" the 'macroevolution' argument. Well, let's go to that "
debunking" shall we?
Response:
1. We would not expect to observe large changes directly. Evolution consists mainly of the accumulation of small changes over large periods of time. If we saw something like a fish turning into a frog in just a couple generations, we would have good evidence against evolution.
2. The evidence for evolution does not depend, even a little, on observing macroevolution directly. There is a very great deal of other evidence (Theobald 2004; see also evolution proof).
3. As biologists use the term, macroevolution means evolution at or above the species level. Speciation has been observed and documented.
4. Microevolution has been observed and is taken for granted even by creationists. And because there is no known barrier to large change and because we can expect small changes to accumulate into large changes, microevolution implies macroevolution. Small changes to developmental genes or their regulation can cause relatively large changes in the adult organism (Shapiro et al. 2004).
5. There are many transitional forms that show that macroevolution has occurred.
Wow! Talk about a smackdown! Not.
1. We wouldn't expect to see such a thing. Sure, we evolved from apes, but we wouldn't expect to actually be able to tell such a thing happened, you stupid creationist! They then make some ludicrous straw man argument about
immediate macroevolution, an argument no one that I'm aware of is even making.
2. We don't have to defend against this claim because, well, we have other arguments that sound better.
3. We're going to change the terms of the debate so your question means something we can "debunk" instead of something we can't.
4. We can observe microevolution, like the color of butterflies, and since we can't think of a reason why this means they can't turn into condors, well, hey, it could happen!
5. We have fossils that show that butterflies turned into condors, or something like that. Well not really, but we're going to try to make you think that's the case.
Seriously? This is the best they've got? Moronic arguments that I can slash apart and I don't even know anything about the issue? Pretty pathetic. Speaking of pathetic, let's get back to the supergeniuses. After a WHOPPING
three comments from 'Holly', how did the supergenius blogger react?:
Is everybody getting tired of Holly? There’s no real entertainment value here, so how much longer should this continue?...
And yes, SC, she’s not even an interesting in her ignorance
[sic]For daring to rebuke these holier-than-thou clowns for their ridiculous and oft-unrelated rebukes in a
fourth (yes a whole 4) comment?
Goodbye, Holly...
She started out polite, so I let her run for a while. But that’s always a mistake. They’re all the same, really...
Feel free to read the comments by 'Holly', which were unfailingly polite and on topic. It goes on, with people commenting on her sex life and making the most geniusey scientificy argument possible - 'she must be fat':
Her recent divorce no doubt threw her into a heretofore unknown world of new responsibilities and new challenges, financially, socially, and sexually...
Probably not safe for work, but contains important information on the sorts of photos that are used for avatars...
I should have banned her as soon as she showed up and deleted her comment...
I see a new persecution card being crafted! The creationists will publish obscure articles in obscure journals, THEN when they hold up their pathetic list of pathetic articles in pathetic journals they’ll whine and cry that we’re being mean to them because their journals aren’t Good Enough!
You mean exactly as you're discussing? Weird projection there.
Probably for the best. That Holly quickly got on my nerves...
Frank J says:
I am not recommending that you make this a “debate” site.
I wouldn’t hesitate to do so if there were anything to debate...Creationism is nothing but a widespread mental health problem...
While SC may have shut her out, he didn’t delete her comments once they were posted...
I like this one - yeah, we banned her, but at least we didn't delete her comments! Hey, want to see some SERIOUS defensiveness?
Already by her second comment she’s calling us close-minded bigots who are simply opposed to God.
Want to see the comment that triggered this fetal position under the bed defensiveness lash out against someone already banned from the site?
"I realize I am discussing this amongst people who will never see my argument as valid simply because it involves God." Whoa! Lookit her go for the throat!!
We’re wrong simply because we don’t accept her point of view...
Project much, buddy? Hey look, the genius that called her fat is trying to defend himself!
Let’s clear it up, I’m not insinuating that Holly is fat, just saying that since the development of the Fat Girl Angle it’s impossible to judge petiteness or the lack thereof from avatar photos. Almost all fat girls use the Fat Girl Angle, but plenty of non-fat girls do too.
Hey, just cuz I said she must be fat, it's like she's all ticked cuz I said she must be fat! Then the clueless dick with the site moronically makes this statement:
Most of us have seen lots of blogs and forums, and far too many of them seem to tolerate just about anything. I guess it’s good for traffic. I don’t care. I don’t want this blog to be something I’d be embarrassed to admit is mine.
Banning people with differing opinions then cheering on people that say they're going to go spam that person's blog and watching people call them 'fat' gratuitously?
That he's not "embarrassed" by.
Wow, things are much more belligerent, insular, and defensive out there in the Darwin-or-bust camp than I ever imagined.